About your grocery list comment: I have a friend (no, really, I do), whose "sales letters" convert at 25% or so to his house list, selling $50 books on diet and nutrition.
Why?
Cuz of his reputation and relationship with them. As you well know, my opinion of the over-hyped copywriters is probably even lower than yours ;-)
-- Jon
Jonathan Paston
· 1 year ago
So what was this terrible sales page?
If it was so funny I'd love to see it!
Merry Christmas Jonathan Paston
Ben Settle
· 1 year ago
Jon: Oh yeah, that's a perfect example. I've even got a crappy ad up that is converting at like 15% -- but only to my warm list. If I tried using it anywhere else, it'd crash and burn.
Jonathan: I won't reveal the exact page (actually, I am not sure it is even up anymore, and it was cleaned up last time I saw compared to the first time I saw it, maybe someone said something to this person?) The important thing (IMHO, anyway) is not who "not" to study, but who "to" study.
Brian
· 1 year ago
Ben,
Great post...I run into this problem all the time. Many clients will come to me with a website they want me to emulate because of the great successes that website is having in terms of sales. The problem is, I would have to go back to day one of my copywriting career (and possibly even 3rd or 4th grade) to produce a sales letter of that caliber.
I am always telling clients that the reason these hyped up sales letters do so well in terms of sales is because of their "proof" or what the reader sees as proof. By this, I'm talking about the pictures depicting massive PayPal deposits and Clickbank sales that the client does not have. I also explain that if they take this kind of proof and add some genuine credibility, coupled with an intelligent sales letter that speaks to the reader as a sincere friend, then they have the ultimate recipe for serious sales.
Gary Bencivenga said in his 100 Seminar (which you turned me onto) that "unquestionable proof" is the most important part of the process...and that when you improve on proof, you will inevitably improve your conversions.
So, what I'm trying to say is that it is those checks, bank statements, paypal deposits, and clickbank sales that are fueling the "proof" while the copy sucks. And, I think we all know that some of the top Internet products these days are being sold by "proof" or what is perceived as proof, when the copy plain sucks.
Imagine what can be accomplished with proof + great copy...
Ben Settle
· 1 year ago
Hey Brian, that's another extremely good point about clients.
I think it was David Ogilvy who would tell clients like that: "Why buy a dog if you're gonna bark yourself?"
Ben
Jon McCulloch
· 1 year ago
Brian,
And this "proof" is so damned easy to fake.
I was talking to a guy I'm mentoring recently and he pointed me to a video made by some guy living in Birmingham, UK (think: large, concrete toilet in the middle of Britain). Claims he making £35,000 a month selling, and has the on-screen PayPal balance to "prove" it.
Yeah, right.
Ten minutes I had my own 4.9 million Euro there on the screen.
Much of the online success you see is down to what's been called the "bestseller effect".
New copywriter on the scene scores big (and lucky) then he gets the best clients with the best products and the best lists. That makes it much easier for him to get good results... which mean he then gets the best clients... and on it goes.
This isn't to say good copy won't beat bad copy when all else is equal, but as someone much more famous than me said, "things rarely are equal".
Of course, this is why proof (bogus and otherwise) helps: builds trust and liking. And feeds, the greed, lol.
-- Jon
Ben Settle
· 1 year ago
Jon, there's another cartoon idea for ya:
A copywriter wearing a hat that says "Killer Copywriter" answering the phone telling the client, "Copy's almost done, just trying to get Photoshop to make the PayPal logo look genuine, hold on..."
Ben
lockwood
· 1 year ago
That's a funny story- I thought you were going to say someone told you to check out something you wrote, not knowing it was your work.
It's just more proof that "gurus" and those making lots of money don't always do everything right, so mindlessly copying them does not guarantee success. Plus the crappy salesletter with guru's name attached, with traffic sent to it via guru's email message, probably converts better than a crappy one should.
Ben Settle
· 1 year ago
Hey Chris, I totally agree. My Affiliate Trump Card system sales letter is about as weak and pathetic as an ad can be.
I put maaaaaybe 10 minutes into writing it.
Yet it converts at like 15% -- and it sure ain't because of the copy.
More like I did a few things right when I released it, gave it a ridiculously low price ($10) for what you get, and the people who buy it already know who I am and what to expect.
The copy is not even a factor as far as I can tell.
Which is why, for their own sakes, I hope nobody is swiping it...
Ben
Matt
· 1 year ago
What's good Ben?
People believe many things on the internets they might not believe otherwise. Maybe it's the inter-ethers that cause them to lose their mind?
I'm currently making my way through Bryan Keith Voiles' 'Ad Magic' package...
... have to say, I dig his deep drill down into a product/service and his sheer simple brilliance when it comes to connecting with people and being REAL. :)
Indeed, studying masters such as Bencivenga, Halbert, Caples, etc. is spot on for modeling excellence ;)
Be well Ben.
~!Matt
Ben Settle
· 1 year ago
Hey Matt, I absolutely loved that interview Brian Keith Voiles did with Michael Senoff a few years ago.
He really digs deep into what he sells and who he's selling to.
Didn't Michael's interview with Brian come in 5 parts, with a bonus section about a 24 yo guy who took Brian's course and landed himself a few speaking gigs? Definitely an inspiring, kick-yourself-in-the-butt-make-it-happen story.
The interview Michael did with you is actually how I learned about you whilst it's exactly why I started reading your blog.
Thank you for keeping it real my friend. :)
~!Matt
Note Taking Nerd #2
· 1 year ago
Hey Ben,
I know the topic is centered around internet swiping but I'm gonna expand our topic for anyone who's new on the block.
It seems we shouldn't exclude from the "tried and true" pile the magalogs, bookalogs and 6 x 9's we get more than once in our mailbox from the masters of the mailing universe (Boardroom, Healthy Directions, Rodale, etc...)
These are the packages that cost tens of thousands of dollars to test initially and an even bigger bank to roll out. There's something comforting in knowing someone with direct marketing intelligence has laid out bricks of cold hard cash to test a package and is doing so repeatedly because it's paid them back what they invested (in customers or orders).
You don't get this indirect authenticity on the internet. Especially with how many ways there are split test copy online. How do you know the letter you have is THE winner?
If you're not an insider or adept at picking up a voice you won't know who wrote promotions mailed to you but you don't need to. You'll know it's a winner if hogs up space in your mailbox at least twice.
And if you subscribe to monthly copywriting genius you might end up seeing it there. For those who don't know, this is a service from AWAI that dissects control ads and does interviews with the wizards who penned them.
What I also enjoy about direct mail is that these winners give me cold hard cash verification as to what people are responding to at this moment in time.
I'm sure everyone reading this knows they shouldn't throw their junk mail away but some people might be neglected by these mailing giants because they haven't bought anything from them.
Some of your readers might only get true junkmail.
I've listed three mailers above you should be getting bombarded by. If you aren't, pick one and invest $39.99 into buying one of their books or newsletters. They share lists so as soon as you pay for what you buy you're guaranteeing the gates of direct mail heaven shall be opened unto you.
Very cool advice Note, it's funny, I keep getting ticked off because these mailers don't send me enough mail... even though I keep buying more stuff from them ;)
All Comments
About your grocery list comment: I have a friend (no, really, I do), whose "sales letters" convert at 25% or so to his house list, selling $50 books on diet and nutrition.
Why?
Cuz of his reputation and relationship with them. As you well know, my opinion of the over-hyped copywriters is probably even lower than yours ;-)
-- Jon
If it was so funny I'd love to see it!
Merry Christmas
Jonathan Paston
Jonathan: I won't reveal the exact page (actually, I am not sure it is even up anymore, and it was cleaned up last time I saw compared to the first time I saw it, maybe someone said something to this person?) The important thing (IMHO, anyway) is not who "not" to study, but who "to" study.
Great post...I run into this problem all the time. Many clients will come to me with a website they want me to emulate because of the great successes that website is having in terms of sales. The problem is, I would have to go back to day one of my copywriting career (and possibly even 3rd or 4th grade) to produce a sales letter of that caliber.
I am always telling clients that the reason these hyped up sales letters do so well in terms of sales is because of their "proof" or what the reader sees as proof. By this, I'm talking about the pictures depicting massive PayPal deposits and Clickbank sales that the client does not have. I also explain that if they take this kind of proof and add some genuine credibility, coupled with an intelligent sales letter that speaks to the reader as a sincere friend, then they have the ultimate recipe for serious sales.
Gary Bencivenga said in his 100 Seminar (which you turned me onto) that "unquestionable proof" is the most important part of the process...and that when you improve on proof, you will inevitably improve your conversions.
So, what I'm trying to say is that it is those checks, bank statements, paypal deposits, and clickbank sales that are fueling the "proof" while the copy sucks. And, I think we all know that some of the top Internet products these days are being sold by "proof" or what is perceived as proof, when the copy plain sucks.
Imagine what can be accomplished with proof + great copy...
I think it was David Ogilvy who would tell clients like that: "Why buy a dog if you're gonna bark yourself?"
Ben
And this "proof" is so damned easy to fake.
I was talking to a guy I'm mentoring recently and he pointed me to a video made by some guy living in Birmingham, UK (think: large, concrete toilet in the middle of Britain). Claims he making £35,000 a month selling, and has the on-screen PayPal balance to "prove" it.
Yeah, right.
Ten minutes I had my own 4.9 million Euro there on the screen.
Much of the online success you see is down to what's been called the "bestseller effect".
New copywriter on the scene scores big (and lucky) then he gets the best clients with the best products and the best lists. That makes it much easier for him to get good results... which mean he then gets the best clients... and on it goes.
This isn't to say good copy won't beat bad copy when all else is equal, but as someone much more famous than me said, "things rarely are equal".
Of course, this is why proof (bogus and otherwise) helps: builds trust and liking. And feeds, the greed, lol.
-- Jon
A copywriter wearing a hat that says "Killer Copywriter" answering the phone telling the client, "Copy's almost done, just trying to get Photoshop to make the PayPal logo look genuine, hold on..."
Ben
It's just more proof that "gurus" and those making lots of money don't always do everything right, so mindlessly copying them does not guarantee success. Plus the crappy salesletter with guru's name attached, with traffic sent to it via guru's email message, probably converts better than a crappy one should.
I put maaaaaybe 10 minutes into writing it.
Yet it converts at like 15% -- and it sure ain't because of the copy.
More like I did a few things right when I released it, gave it a ridiculously low price ($10) for what you get, and the people who buy it already know who I am and what to expect.
The copy is not even a factor as far as I can tell.
Which is why, for their own sakes, I hope nobody is swiping it...
Ben
People believe many things on the internets they might not believe otherwise. Maybe it's the inter-ethers that cause them to lose their mind?
I'm currently making my way through Bryan Keith Voiles' 'Ad Magic' package...
... have to say, I dig his deep drill down into a product/service and his sheer simple brilliance when it comes to connecting with people and being REAL. :)
Indeed, studying masters such as Bencivenga, Halbert, Caples, etc. is spot on for modeling excellence ;)
Be well Ben.
~!Matt
He really digs deep into what he sells and who he's selling to.
Ben
Didn't Michael's interview with Brian come in 5 parts, with a bonus section about a 24 yo guy who took Brian's course and landed himself a few speaking gigs? Definitely an inspiring, kick-yourself-in-the-butt-make-it-happen story.
The interview Michael did with you is actually how I learned about you whilst it's exactly why I started reading your blog.
Thank you for keeping it real my friend. :)
~!Matt
I know the topic is centered around internet swiping but I'm gonna expand our topic for anyone who's new on the block.
It seems we shouldn't exclude from the "tried and true" pile the magalogs, bookalogs and 6 x 9's we get more than once in our mailbox from the masters of the mailing universe (Boardroom, Healthy Directions, Rodale, etc...)
These are the packages that cost tens of thousands of dollars to test initially and an even bigger bank to roll out. There's something comforting in knowing someone with direct marketing intelligence has laid out bricks of cold hard cash to test a package and is doing so repeatedly because it's paid them back what they invested (in customers or orders).
You don't get this indirect authenticity on the internet. Especially with how many ways there are split test copy online. How do you know the letter you have is THE winner?
If you're not an insider or adept at picking up a voice you won't know who wrote promotions mailed to you but you don't need to. You'll know it's a winner if hogs up space in your mailbox at least twice.
And if you subscribe to monthly copywriting genius you might end up seeing it there. For those who don't know, this is a service from AWAI that dissects control ads and does interviews with the wizards who penned them.
What I also enjoy about direct mail is that these winners give me cold hard cash verification as to what people are responding to at this moment in time.
I'm sure everyone reading this knows they shouldn't throw their junk mail away but some people might be neglected by these mailing giants because they haven't bought anything from them.
Some of your readers might only get true junkmail.
I've listed three mailers above you should be getting bombarded by. If you aren't, pick one and invest $39.99 into buying one of their books or newsletters. They share lists so as soon as you pay for what you buy you're guaranteeing the gates of direct mail heaven shall be opened unto you.
Thank you Ben for laying your wisdom down here,
I'll look forward to hearing from you again.
Note Taking Nerd #2
www.mynotetakingnerd.wordpress.com
Ben